But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. She said she shot him. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. I was in the military and was law enforcement. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. The FBI cant make up its mind and bounces back and forth. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. The saga will never end. For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. During 15 years of LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. High-velocity When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. Maybe .22 LR? I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Owned a model 29 .357 How many decades are we going to have this debate? IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. Its proven knowledge. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Now that you know where I am coming from. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. for every day carry. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. The above referenced expert needs to stick with whatever he may really be an expert at. The beautiful country in south east Asia. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. A 35-45 psi Project: Aftermath Wiki. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Shot placement vs. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? I also have one that many people will call garbage. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. For another 2+ years. So banter on gentlemen. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. But ideally you need a brush rifle. He was 15.. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. My $.02. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. I never miss. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Fire Rate: 240 You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! Its only a pistol. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. But the guy kept on coming. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. Train, train train and when your done. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. EVER! Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? Died instantly. Never held a weapon till boot camp. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. and manufacturers. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. The double stack G19 is thicker. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Its all about follow up shots. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Cool story for real. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Be Safe Out There. It goes in a like a nail.. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. WebSTI Tactical. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. Sorry for the rant. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. to stop the threat. AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. Because of the dynamic and chaotic nature of officer-involved shootings, officers are trained to shoot at center mass of an assailants torso from whatever side/angle of the torso that presents itself. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. Police usually shoot from a distance. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. Also, do you love this debate on the various handgun calibers? This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. George. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. Well, depends on whom you ask. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Take this for what its worth. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. All this newer powder and more efficient bullets. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. Cheap crap. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. There is no substitute for experience. After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. All animals died pretty much on location.
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